The meeting started late at 7:15. Nowakowski was absent.
Larry Trick said he was going to talk about inspections on new houses, but decided to talk about the layoffs in the fire department instead. Majewski said the firefighters were not on the agenda. Mark Swider said he sent a letter to the City Manager. Majewski asked if anyone wanted to propose a resolution to amend the agenda. No one offered.
Beatrice Woods asked whose idea it was to lay off the firefighters. Majewski again said the firefighters were not on the agenda. Woods said the firefighters should be on the top of the agenda.
Mark Swider said he didn’t know why his letter wasn’t on the agenda because he submitted it to the City Manager and the Clerk prior to the 4pm deadline. Majewski said he would have to ask the Crawford and Babij. Crawford said Swider was on the agenda. Klein said the agenda didn’t specify a topic, so people wouldn’t be allowed to speak to it.
Julie Boluk said the Charter requires the Mayor to set the agenda. She started to talk about Mark Swider, but Klein said the agenda was not an agenda item. Boluk said she wanted to know if they would have her removed by the police. She asked several times over the shouts of Klein if payroll was on the agenda. Klein proposed calling a policeman. Ahmed seconded. The resolution passed unanimously.
Boluk asked how many administrative assistants have been hired in the last year, and if they would come to take her mother to the hospital. She said the families of councilmembers don’t live in Hamtramck. In the audience, Terry Smith said she might move to Grosse Pointe. Majewski told her to be quiet. Beatrice Woods told Majewski to be quiet.
Bill Dickens, a laid off firefighter, said people wanted to comment on the lay-offs and asked for a motion to amend the agenda. Algazali moved to amend the agenda. Zwolak seconded. None of the others voted. Majewski said the motion failed. Audience members pointed out that there were two yes votes and no votes against. The vote was taken again. Cedar, Ahmed, and Klein voted against amending the agenda. Dickens said he was disappointed.
Public Hearings
Parks Advisory Commission: Julie Boluk asked for an amendment to prevent devotion of administrative time to the Parks Advisory Commission until the fire department is adequately staffed.
Youth Council: Julie Boluk asked if the school administration was included in the ordinance. Her question went unanswered.
Unfinished Business
Parks advisory: Cedar said he proposed the ordinance and had intended to refine it, but had not received input from other members. Zwolak motioned to table. Klein seconded and suggested suspending the appointments as well. All voted in favor.
Youth Council: Klein said many worked on the ordinance and it should be moved forward. Direct elections by students was the big change. Klein proposed changing quorum to three members. The amendment passed unanimously. All voted in favor of the ordinance.
New Business
Ranking officers contract: Sgt Tripp explained that some of the language still had to be decided, but the main difference between contract negotiated by Schimmel and the new contract was verbiage. The old contract was 40 pages long and included antiquated terms.
Zwolak asked about a provision for a deputy chief. Crawford said they may hire a deputy chief, but they are not required to. Sgt. Tripp explained that the provision Zwolak was referring to was supposed to say that the deputy chief would be promoted from the pool of ranking officers.
Klein asked if there were lay offs in the police department and if the new contract gave lower benefits to newcomers. Sgt Tripp replied in the negative. The resolution passed unanimously.
Taxicab transfer: Cedar said process for transferring licenses was working, and proper inspections are being done. All voted in favor.
The consent agenda passed unanimously.
Hamtramck Star
Run out of Ypsilanti since 2005
Our true city council showed up at the meeting last night. I’ve never been more truly disgusted to be a voter and a citizen of this town. I even voted for that mayor.
The stifling of free speech was apparent. The way these citizens – most of them older ladiesm were ignored and pushed back was nothing more than a black eye on this administration. Karen Majewski telling one of them (Mrs. Woods?) to shut up was appalling.
The end of the meeting was pretty dramatic with the Firefighters President storming out after Scott Klein had the audacity to question the validity of some business owners that wrote to support the firemen. Afterwards, Klein proved he has no idea what “negotiations” and “give and take” means.
Our crazy council took it one step further and became a joke by giving our city a bigger black eye. Six fireman are still laid off and no one on the council cares about the lives and safety of us in town or those protecting us.
Both Cedar and Ahmed stopped to talk about the Firefighter issue with me. Cedar explained that he wasn’t going to comment on the issue because of “ongoing negotiations, and that”.
Instead of listening to Hillary explain why the entire Downtown of her hometown burned to the ground, Ahmed went right into explaining how the firefighters were asking for too much, and that the older firefighters were over-compensated. In hindsight I figure this was a justification for laying off six firefighters the week before the 4th of July.
I’ve done a little bit of research and I’m finding a loose guideline of one firefighter for every 1,000 residents. With the proximity and age of Hamtramck buildings, I’d think that we could muster 22-25 firefighters to keep our property safe and the firefighters healthy. We have 14.
The point I’d like to make is that I don’t believe putting my life and property at risk is an acceptable way to negotiate with the Firefighter Union. I voted for Ahmed because I thought he in some way represented me but I’m finding I was mistaken.
“Klein said the agenda didn’t specify a topic, so people wouldn’t be allowed to speak to it.”–in reference to Mark Swider’s name at the end of the agenda–which was deliberately placed there as “Persons to be heard from the floor-Mark Swider”.
What a scam! Any reference to the official written communication, from the President of the firefighter’s union, regarding the layoff of our firefighters, was deliberately ommitted, so they could attempt to stop the residents and taxpayers (their constituents), and the firefighters from speaking to the issue on the agenda, of concern to “Mark Swider”.
It was also on the agenda, in the form of the payroll and fund warrant listings, which I spoke to. The average citizen, who’s not necessarily experienced or knowledgable enough of the process, had to submit to being silenced, because they weren’t politically savvy enough to demand their right to be heard.
In my opinion, Karen’s response to Klein was important. She “ruled in his favor”, denying the elderly and others, the right to speak to it the issue as an agenda item (which it was, in more than one place), making them wait in that hot room for hours.
What chicanery perpetrated against the good people of our fair community, by our mayor and her cohorts. Then she had the nerve to blame the CM for setting the agenda, when the law requires her participation.
Charter Sec.7-03 states that “The regular meetings of the city council shall be presided over by the mayor, who along with the city manager shall establish the agenda for the meetings, or
in case of his absence or disability, by the mayor pro tem.”
If Karen was absent from her duty, or disabled, it was Rob’s responsibility. The way I see it, they broke the law, by violating the charter, and failed in their duty.
If it was the CM’s office, acting alone, and outside his authority, to use such reprehensible trickery, that’s another problem. Ultimately, it’s the mayor’s responsibility.
That action, along with Klein’s insistence, Karen’s “ruling”, and Rob’s tacit approval by his silence, had the “chilling effect” of interfering with the people’s right to petition their government, during an open public meeting, under the prescribed rules and laws of our city, state and nation.
I give Algazali and Zwolak credit for attempting to stop it, with a resolution to let people speak.
That political game-playing, by the solidarity slate, the majority in power, undermines our federal constitution, state laws regarding home rule, and our city charter.
Again, our law mandates that the mayor set the agenda, along with the CM. Or is that type of law-breaking by our mayor acceptable? Is it a small thing, or does anyone else see how it leads down the slippery slope of complicity?
We convey them the title of “Honorable”. Where’s the honor? I don’t see it.
I agree, Steven. It may also be an unfair labor practice, which could lead to another property tax judgment.
Here are some other cities’ firefighter per capita figures:
With 14 I think that puts us at .63 firefighters per 1000. Have a safe 4th of July everybody.
–
Source: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04056/277297.stm
“I voted for Ahmed because I thought he in some way represented me but I’m finding I was mistaken.”
I just saw his ad for state rep, in “The Citizen”. He’s got endorsements from Majewski, the fire chief, the police chief, and Tim Nowakowski, which was a surprise.
Politics makes strange bedfellows. He’s also pictured with his wife, who was removed by federal HUD officials, for financial mismanagement of our public housing.
Funny, they object to paying the ATO payout, required by the contract with our firefighters, but they had no problem with the $100,000.00 salary package for the former housing director (also removed by the feds), while he was hanging signs for Majewski, Shahab, and the entire Solidarity PAC.
Connect the dots for the bigger picture folks, and follow the money trail.
This is the link with the headline:
“Report calls city of Pittsburgh a big spender”
and lists the other cities as big speaders as well? Not that I’m against more firefighters, but a better comparison would be a city with a comparable area/population surrounded by a city about the size of Pittsburgh.
Right, the point was to identify what cities spend the most on firefighters. The biggest spender seems to be Pittsburg with 2.8 per 1000 residents.
If one firefighter per 1000 residents is the baseline and 2.8 per 1000 is the best in the country, we’re still understaffed by about 27%. We’re a long way away from “Big spender” status.
Where does Hamtramck want to be on this scale? I’m betting the insurance companies have some idea about how our new staffing levels will impact our premiums.
Ferndale has a population of 21,693 and 32 Firefighters. Subtract two for chief and deputy that’s still 1.4 firefighters per 1000 residents.
Ypsilanti has 19 firefighters, not including the Chief and Fire Marshall. They’re at about .8 firefighters per 1000 residents.
I think Hamtramck is at a greater risk of serious fires than either of those municipalities because our buildings are more densely packed.
If anyone knows how many firefighters are employed by each of these cities, I’d like to know.
Allen Park – pop.28,762
Eastpointe – pop.33,394
Garden City – pop.29,547
Inkster – pop.29,478
Lincoln Park – pop.39,131
Madison Heights – pop.30,463
Oak Park – pop.29,146
I’ll see if I can look up some firefighter figures. The point though, is that being surrounded by a big city with it’s own fire department does add some added protection. Now that I think on it, a Centerline/Warren, Clawson/Troy comparison might be right. Here’s a link on how surrounding can help:
http://www.insidehamtramck.com/polishmarketfire.htm
By the way, they also did some work on a similar situation in 2003. Might be worth a look.
From what I’ve heard, being surrounded by Detroit doesn’t help us much without a decent mutual aid agreement. It’s my understanding that Detroit FD watched The Polish Market burn while they waited for word on how they’d be paid. Maybe this isn’t true?
Home Depot has a small fire-extinguisher for $19 and a bigger one for $29. Not trying to be a smart ass. No joke.
Steven, your comment on the polish market was not accurate. (readers digest version) At the time of the market fire, we had been laid off for roughly two weeks, six firefighters laid off the day after labor day. Detroit showed solidarity with the labor union and when it was apparent that there was no life safety issue, they did not help. This makes it hard on the responding firefighters, but also illistrates a point: Dont lay off personnel and THEN expect the other city in your area to pick up the slack.
Detroit FD has certainly helped out in the past, but not during a labor battle.
Albin, to compare, you need to get like areas and sizes, TROY does NOT have the same situational problems a hamtramck faces. Ypsilanti can be a comparision, but they have a similar population size in twice the geographical area.
The uniqueness of hamtramck is in its dense population and older buildings. The construction type ofthe buildings must be considered also, a balloon frame constructed building is MUCH easier to burn to the ground. (go ask a local fireman why)
The people of this city need to act quickly and aggressively to counter act the mayor, city council and the city managers attempt to put the citizens of this city in danger. In the end, as always with this city, we see how third rate our city government is. Its time to start a RECALL OF THE MAYOR AND CITY COUNCIL/
mike, thanks for clarifying the Polish Market/DFD issue.
Hamtrmack Firefighters Assoc. President Mark Swider asked me to post this to clear up some rumors.
We do consider Councilman Tim Nowakowski a supporter of the Hamtramck Fire Department. He was not part of the group of councilpersons that supported outsourcing our department. We support Tim and his decisions.
John
http://www.hamtramckfirefighters.com
Councilmen Algazali and Zwolak also voted against Requests For Proposals (RFP’s) being prepared for outsourcing FD services.
If I’m not mistaken, Mayor Majewski cast the tie-breaking vote, along with Cedar, Ahmed, and Klein (the entire solidarity majority in power), to go ahead with the RFP process for outsourcing.
That official action is in direct conflict with their campaign promises, which led the public to believe they’d strengthen OUR FD. The old “bait & switch” deception tactic.
Strike while the iron is hot. A recall drive should be initiated immediately.
The problem becomes more than the lay offs. The mayor and the offending council people are showing their collective colors.
What a joke. Get elected while promoting the Public Safety of the citizens of this city. Then when push comes to shove, the “solidarity” people shove (a knife right in the back of all 25,000 people of this city)
I hate to see it happen, but wake up people, its still early, this wont be the last time your city leaders will do this type of thing.
RECALL
As a councilperson I will not discuss this openly (as such issues need to be dealt with directly by those involved in negotiations) But before the lynch mob gets out of hand I wonder if anybody has actually read the City’s most recent offer that was rejected by the fireman?
And do you really support the Schimmel agreement that pays big “retirement bonuses” to current firemen and in the long run would destroy the fire department with a two tier contract that will be very unattractive to new hires? Thus leading to the part time no benefit quasi-volunteer department that schimmel always wanted?
Rob C
Rob, isn’t it true that the fireman have offered to eliminate those “big retirement bonuses” (ATO payment) during these negotiations? Isn’t it true that the firemen’s contract also include a 20% pay reduction when the way they average hours changed in this new contract?
In an economic climate where health insurance costs are way, way up and employer’s are cutting these benefits and/or sharing more of the cost with the employee (whether by negotiation, abitrater or other means), it seems fair that the firemen saw the writing on the wall and took that insurance hit.
Rob, we know you won’t answer the tough questions – just as you simply lied and/or misled during your campaign. You’ll just spit out a few words of rhetoric and disappear. Your posts only proves that you’re playing games with people’s lives.
A recall seems to be the only recourse – you, Klein, Ahmed and Majewski should be ashamed of the campaign promises turned to lies, and should be ashamed of everyone of our lives placed in jeopardy.
Damn, I forgot to even mention Rob and the gang’s treatment of citizens and residents at the council meeting on Tuesday – that’s NOT a part of ongoing negotiations, etc. Please, at the very least address that, Cedar.
… I wonder if anybody has actually read the City’s most recent offer that was rejected by the fireman?
We’d love to. Where is this offer published?
Mr. Cedar, as a taxpayer, putting citizens’ property and lives in jeopardy is an unacceptable bargaining tactic to combat “big retirement bonuses”. If my block catches on fire and citizens lives aren’t at risk, Detroit’s eveidently going to let it burn because the HFD is in the midst of a labor dispute.
The current staffing level is unacceptable. I can’t speak for everyone but this is how I feel Solidarity PAC members misled voters during their campaign.
^ I second that.
Rob, isn’t it true that the fireman have offered to eliminate those “big retirement bonuses” (ATO payment) during these negotiations? Isn’t it true that the firemen’s contract also include a 20% pay reduction when the way they average hours changed in this new contract?
READ THE CONTRACTS and THE OFFERS- don’t rely on second hand information- rob
“it seems fair that the firemen saw the writing on the wall and took that insurance hit”.
BUT ONLY FOR THE NEW HIRES?- rob
Copies of the rejected offer should be available at the city clerks office. Or better yet ask one of the fireman’s union leaders, they are the ones that rejected it and if its so bad I’m sure they will be glad to discuss it with you point by point. But don’t take their,(or my ) word for it. read it yourself and then compare it to other communities.
Mr. Cedar, None of your arguments change the fact that Council put Hamtramckan’s life and property at risk by reducing our staffing to .63 firefighters per 1000 residents. This action directly contradicts Solidarity’s campaign promises.
Should be? Are the contracts available at the clerk’s office or not?
I don’t have any contact information for our Firefighter’s Union officials and it doesn’t seem like I should need it. I figure our city council would make such infomation available to their constituents, unless they’re stonewalling us.
The current staffing level is unaccpetable. Placing citizens property and lives in jeopardy is an unacceptable bargaining tactic to combat “big retirement bonuses”.
I love Rob’s rhetoric – um, actually I don’t – it’s pretty sad because since I live in the city, and my family does, we’re endanger because of Rob and the gang’s negotiating “tactics.”
Rob, I have no reason to believe you. You’ve already lied.
I have no reason to believe what I was told on Tuesday by the fireman isn’t true. Rob, please answer the question directly: did any of the firemen’s offers include eliminating the “big retirement bonuses” (ATO payment)? YES or NO. It’s a direct question.
Yes, Rob – the new hiree’s took the hit for their insurance. It’s a damn shame, but it’s a fact of life we have to live with. That’s how contracts are negotiated. It’s amazing you have a conscience about that, but not about the staffing levels you are endangering US with.
A couple things I learned on Tuesday:
-the firefighters offered to remove their “ATO/big retirement bonus” – that was the cities biggest gripe in public.
-the firefighters are taking a 20% pay cut.
So fine, Rob – you’re getting your “big retirement bonuses” back, so give the new hires their insurance. Seems like more than a fair enough trade.
I don’t have any contact information for our Firefighter’s Union officials and it doesn’t seem like I should need it. I figure our city council would make such infomation available to their constituents, unless they’re stonewalling us.,,,,,,,,,
The fire union has a web site, (you can even get to it from this site) Why don’t you ask them to post the rejected offer. After all it was THEY that rejected it. If they think it was so bad let THEM explain the rejection.
And yes, the clerk SHOULD have it, All you needed to do was make a phone call, Unless of course your more interested in muckraking then the truth. (and I might add that some of our finest journalist and writers were muckrakers, but they ALL start with the truth.)
Is this true? I was told Karen (the mayor) walked out of talks with the firefighters, saying she had a “real job” to go to.
She promised, in her campaign literature, to be a “real mayor”.
Rob, how many of the firefighters offers have you and yours rejected?
…and the firefighters do have a contract that was negotiated and accepted but then said to be “excessive” and “greedy” by the council and city manager; well, Rob most folks think the contract that you and your cronies on the council (notably Klein) gave Crawford even more of an amazing deal that Schimmell gave the firemen.
Since you, the council and Crawford and so into renegotiating in the best interest of the city, let’s rework Crawford’s deal, too! I mean if you want a poster boy for greedy and someone not having any interest in the city other than a payday look at our city manager’s office.
Rob,
Do I need to remind you that you’re an elected official? You’re not going to convince me by calling me names.
I don’t need to see the contract to know that Solidarity repeatedly made promises and failed to keep them.
It’s evident that Council didn’t even try to save these positions at the fire department. What else was cut? Did you discuss cutting the Economic Development staff? We noticed that there was somehow room in the budget to repave the concrete in front of the Fire Department. What about authorizing an additional $20k in road repairs? These are all nice things but none of them would have made a difference in our decision to buy a house here.
Did Council make an appeal to the voters before the layoffs? No.
You got elected because the voters thought you understood how important staffing the Fire Department is.
Yes, I’m an elected official and as such have to be concerned with the total budget. From the sound of it some folks would be glad to cut ALL other services just to pay the fireman NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT COST. When the reality is that there has to be a reasonable balance.
As to putting it to the voters? If you want to put an item on the ballot to increase taxes so that we can afford what they want then you are welcome to do so. Myself I feel the offer they rejected was reasonable and I suggest that people get a copy and ask a fireman why it was rejected. Any discussion other then that is mere speculation and rhetoric.
some folks would be glad to cut ALL other services just to pay the fireman NO MATTER HOW MUCH IT COST. When the reality is that there has to be a reasonable balance.
Rob, am I to understand that the firemen have asked for all of the $16 Million budget?
Ypsilanti only has a $14 Million budget and somehow they manage to keep .8 firefighters per 1000 residents.
How many firefighers per 1000 residents is “well equipped and well staffed”? .63 is pitiful.
Rob,
Acoording to the newpaper the city was concerned with the “big retirement bonuses” (your words in this very thread).
I’ve been told repeatedly now that the firemen had an offer on the table eliminating this very “bonus.”
The city refused that offer – and now we’re stuck with those bonuses anyhow. Great job on negotiating there! Is it true the city wanted more and more cuts despite the fact that the city was asking these guys to amend an already existing cotract? Is it true the city is still trying to force more cuts by playing political games with our lives – and theirs?
Who loses everyone – most importantly – US CITIZENS.
I ask you again:
-did the firemen offer to eliminate this “bonus/ATO”?
-has the city asked Crawford to renegotiate his contract
“I’ve been told repeatedly now that the firemen had an offer on the table eliminating this very “bonus.” “
And as A child I was told repeatedly that the tooth fairy was real.
Sorry Tred, I will not discuss the details of the negotiations as labor laws are very tricky and I will not be baited into stepping over the line. If however you really are interested in moving forward (versus just re-posting the same rhetoric) I suggest (again) that you (everybody) look at the rejected offer.
As I am sure some of the firefighter read this blog maybe one of them would like to furnish a copy or post it on their site.
And less I be accused of repetition that’s all I have to say about it.
Why don’t you post the rejected offer, so we can all look at it, Rob?
Oh, and Rob, why didn’t you fulfill your obligation (as mayor pro tem), to set the agenda with the CM, if Karen was absent from her duty?
And Rob, isn’t that why you’re paid that extra money? To step in when Karen absents herself from her duty to the people?
Rob, I think you’re a liar. I do believe the firefighters have indeed have a proposal that included eliminating the ATO/”bonus” (tripling).
I’ve asked two questions – one you gave a half-assed answer that insinuated that the firemen did not propose to eliminate the ATO/”bonus”; the other about renegotiating Crawford’s contract.
Yeah, Rob – I do believe in negotiating in good faith and avoiding unfair labor practices. I don’t think you or the city does.
Rob, I think you’re a liar. I do believe the firefighters have indeed have a proposal that included eliminating the ATO/”bonus” (tripling).
Tred, If your going to call me a liar (even think it) you should KNOW and not just BELIEVE something. Can you share your source or document your claim? Besides it doesn’t mater what you think, What matters is why was the last offer rejected? What more did the fireman want? And I can’t answer that question. Only a fireman can. PLEASE ask them.
With due Respect,
Rob
My question is what kind of real offer was actually made by the city? From what I understand pretty much every coucil member came up with some type of offer and they were all progressively worse. What kind of real contract negotiation experience does this city really have?? I know for a fact that there are members of that fire department that have been dealing with contracts for over 30 years.
Rob, YOUR WRONG about telling tred “it doesnt matter what you think”. As a council person you should be the first to know that it MATTERS what people in the street think. Its your obligation as an elected offical to rise about the fray and figure out what is the true issue and come to the best solution for THE CITIZENS of this city.
You and your cohorts are pitiful. You play a little game and think your position is more grand than it actually is. Stick to what needs to be talked about. THE SAFETY OF OUR CITZENS. When firefighters are laid off, the people hurt.
If you have a hidden agenda, (as a voter, that is what I think), you do a poor job of disguising it.
IF there is a proposal out there, print it, stop all of this chatter, a get to the facts.
IF there was a counter proposal, print it.
IF you cant talk about it, stick to your original point of not talking about it. Dont be some “mystery” man and allude to points in the distance. Be a stand up person, say what you mean and mean what you say.
To the citizens of this city: Hold your elected officials accountable. Our safety, our parents safety, our elderly neighbors safety is at risk when you stretch the Fire departments ranks too thin. If something doesnt happen soon, we (as voters) need to take the task into our own hands and get someone in office that actually cares.
Steven, while ypsilanti and hamtramck can be compared, the departments are slightly different. The main difference is that HFD is a (EMS) Basic Transport department. meaning that two members (HFD) will staff the ambulance and respond to medical emergencies. Subsequently if the patient requires definitive care, HFD will transport the patient.
Steven, if you remember, two summers ago, Ypsilanti reduced their EMS service to the citizens of that city. They only respond to heart problems, difficulty breathing and “unknown” type medicals. In addition, ypsi, has only rarely transported someone to the hospital, the onus was on HVA.
HFD does a great job of getting its citizens medical care and when needed, transportation to the hospital.
Now if you do the math, if two members are out at the hospital and a FIRE is reported, that leaves FOUR firefighters for the initial response, that is until the two firefighters clear the hospital.
i could go on, but i will stop now.
Rob to a resident”it doesnt matter what you think”.
I think we all get where Rob and his solidarity stand on things. We will do whatever we want, whenever we want, and don’t dare ask any questions as we’re the dictators, the “less than” great Hamtramck city council. It’s funny how Rob Cedar didn’t say he doesn’t care what residents think during the campaign. Instead he used the fire department for political gain only and outright LIED to every resident. It’s disgraceful.
Rob said, “If you want to put an item on the ballot to increase taxes so that we can afford what they want then you are welcome to do so.”
I think this would be done by petition drive by residents if I’m not mistaken. I think a petition drive for RECALL would be much more effective and then we could elect a REAL mayor and REAL council who cares.
Has anyone heard about a RECALL effort yet?????
Tom, this is the grass roots forum we have and need to start this up. Im not sure the exact number, but we get a petition drive started and get those people who DO NOT CARE ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY, recalled and elect someone who will look out for the citizens of this city.
Rob, I know you and some of the other council people and the mayor read this site,……. we’re coming after you.
I think a RECALL is definately in order, there are bums on the street that could do a beter job because they actually care about the citizens not just themselves. I don’t know how you can expect people that have five dollars in their bank account to try and manage a city budget and be on our city council. Somebody that would have to take out a loan to be bankrupt is not the best person to have on our city council. Also I find it very amusing some of the quotes that have surfaced from our “elected officials.” It is very funny the lies that are cast upon our citizens during election time. This whole topic makes me sick to my stomach. I think we need to have a state appointed financial manager come back into this city and straighten it our like Schimmel reccomended. It is very obvious that the powers that be are negligent and irresponsible.
“Rob to a resident”it doesn’t matter what you think”".
So there it starts. I tell someone that his opinion should be based on facts and not here-say as in
“”Tred, If your going to call me a liar (even think it) you should KNOW and not just BELIEVE something. Can you share your source or document your claim? Besides it doesn’t mater what you think, What matters is why was the last offer rejected? What more did the fireman want? And I can’t answer that question. Only a fireman can. PLEASE ask them.”"
SO.now I’m quoted out of context as syaing I don’t care what people think.
Great job guys! Have fun with your own agenda, attack me if you like, even try to recall me, but non of that will change the fact that, well to put it kindly, you really don’t know what your talking about until “what you think” is a bit closer aligned to reality.
Rob
I don’t recall Rob every saying, “.. it doesn’t matter what you think”.
I’m not sure what “great job guys” means. It seems that Tom alone made the assertion. In my experience Tom is a reasonable person and like all of us, sometimes makes mistakes.
Mr. Cedar, these are your constituients, don’t they deserve a thorough explaination?
On your advice yesterday, Hillary and went down to the firehouse and met with Mark Swider. He was starting the first of two 72-hour shifts. He’s putting together some information for us.
“He was starting the first of two 72-hour shifts.”
Interesting point. And please understand I agree that our fireman work hard at their jobs (like many of you). PLUS risk their lives while trying to save ours. Firefighting is a truly noble profession and deserves our respect and admiration. They, like our best schoolteachers, doctors, nurses and policemen all disserve more money then professional athletes and certainly more then POP entertainers.
But there are the details of working out a fair and just union contract that pays a decent wage, provides security (medical) and a reasonable amount of time off while being affordable to a city.
Now about working “the first of a two 72 hour shifts. I don’t doubt its hard on a person but it’s important to consider that our fireman work and sleep at the firehouse and it is not unusual for them to work multiple day shifts whether fighting fires or being on the ready to fight fires and save lives. Just as it is typical for them to have extended off time. Admittedly with the layoffs there will be less “off time” but I’m not sure how to quantify the factors that would show that a person is working harder unless there are more fires (and ems runs) and that would be true on any sort of schedule.
And I do not mean for this to be a discussion of Mark’s dedication to his job but merely to say that its not only how many hours someone works but how they are paid for those hours. and the hours they are paid while being off whether its sick days, personal days, kelly days, holidays etc.
Well, we can all talk a lot of smack. No one can produce a copy of the evidence, because, well, we’re all just too darn lazy, aren’t we? We’d all rather hurl insults and allegations (however deserved and true they may or may not be) and create drama and political intrique than actually do something to fix the city’s very real and difficult problems.
As a Hamtramck resident and registered voter, I have to say that I have yet to meet or hear of one person holding office in Hamtramck in the last two years who seems either vaguely respectable or competent. I’ve seen nothing but embarrassing, rude, and generally disgusting behavior from all of those I’ve met. I’ve read nothing but borderline illiterate talking point dodgy fourth-rate politician-speak stupidity from those officeholders who’ve posted here and at Mike’s site, people like Cedar trying to win the argument rather than address the issue. I’ve heard and read nothing but horror stories about the personal and/or political lives of those politicians I haven’t met or read.
I also have to say that I’m also rather disappointed in a body politic that seems more inclined to drink and bicker than do anything constructive, and is content to support what they perceive as the lesser evil rather than convincing people with character, education, and intelligence to run for office. Lest anyone doubt it, we have a few in town. Unfortunately, they tend spend their time taking pot shots at the easy targets who currently run our city government and backing candidates with embarrassing personal habits and little in the way of qualifications for public office, rather than running for office themselves, which is really a rather sad waste of some of the minds we have around here.
It’s enough to make me want to enter politics myself.
Or just forget about it, write a bitchy comment, and change my mind about buying a house in Hamtramck, where nothing seems likely to change for the better any time soon, because most of the smartest people in town are also smart enough to keep their official addresses out in the suburbs.
It is very unusual to go through a workday at the Fire Dept. without a run. Most of the time, the dept. respond to upwards of 10 or so a day… sometimes more, sometimes less. These runs come in at all hours of the day and night, the fire dept. doesn’t keep business hours.
How many of these two 72 hour shifts are overtime?
How much will this cost the city if someone gets hurt/injured/killed?
How much will this cost the city in OT and future pension costs? (Remember the police traffic/OT program that was eliminated years ago?)
How (over)tired will these guys be on hour 22 or hour 71?
When will these guys see their families / take care of other personal business that needs attending?
Disenfranchised,
No one can produce a copy of the evidence, because, well, we’re all just too darn lazy, aren’t we?
As I wrote before, Hillary and I went down to the firehouse yesterday and we’re working with Mark Swider to get copies of the contracts today. The Firefigher’s Union has been extremely cooperative.
Unfortunately, they tend spend their time taking pot shots at the easy targets who currently run our city government and backing candidates with embarrassing personal habits and little in the way of qualifications for public office, rather than running for office themselves, which is really a rather sad waste of some of the minds we have around here.
We’ve lived in Hamtramck for a year and a half. To us it doesn’t seem reasonable for either of us to try to tackle a city council position.
Steven,
Not that I don’t think either of you have the mind for it, but I wasn’t specifically referring to you or Hillary in that little rant. Although come to think of it, I’m inclined to think that either of you would in fact be better public servants than those we have now. As if length of residence demonstrates suitability for the job. One could make some very easy arguments to the contrary, in fact, although they wouldn’t be very kind to Hamtramck and the good side of it which so many of us value.
Good luck getting some real info. Cedar is pulling a classic rhetorical copout by referring you to a document which you must go find, and further, you must find the evidence to support his claims. If he’s going to bring it into the debate, he should provide it. Silly, and transparent as hell.
Thanks,
D.
“you must find the evidence to support his claims.”
My point is that I have made NO Claims but merely asked those who have to at least read the document or to better understand the issues before making claims that I know to be marginal at best. It was never my intend to be evasive or argumentative. But simply to say look at reality.
Still a little confused about one thing. I thought this was a new ballgame and the CM was largely responsible for negotiations (at least I got that idea from the Citizen).
About firefighters per capita – Hamtramck seems in the same position Detroit has been in for the last 6 years (possibly 20) with .6 per 1000
http://detnews.com specialrreports/2000/firedept/monlead/monlead.htm
I don’t think they even worry about running with a full crew. Seem to be in arbitration much of the time about lorbor problems (will be more with the currently planned 600 more layoffs)
Ypsilanti is about 1 per 1000 according to the Town Hall Meeting Q&A. They have a weak mayor government as Hamtramck although they characterize it as the “older model” not as much in favor anymore (they have an exec council instead of one CM). Their police/fire pension seems close to what the State of Michigan has for government employees, though I’ll need to look into that more.
The CM did not approve the reduction in firefighting personnel without the approval of the solidarity majority. They gave him the go-ahead for the layoffs.
I agree with Steven, that risking our lives and property is not an acceptable negotiating strategy.
It may even be an unfair labor practice, that’ll end up costing us more in tax judgments.
This is a pathetic discussion. On one side you have residents complaining that we need more firefighters, without regard to the costs — neither long term nor short term. On the other hand, you have elected officials working under a very tight budget, trying to hold down costs and still provide public safety. Both sides will argue and argue, but without a real solution to the problem, nothing will happen. Hamtramck residents will receive fewer and fewer services, and the City will find it more and more difficult to pay its bills. No one on this board wants to bring up the real long term solution: a public safety department. Increases public safety officers’ training, provides better services, more cost effective. Every time there are negotiations with the firefighters or police, there are the same lines drawn and the same arguments. Never any solution.
Speaking of public safety: how come, last Sunday, there were two Hamtramck police officers on the overpass (I-75 North) with a radar gun, trapping speeders, and three cars on I-75 ticketing speeders? That is FIVE Hamtramck cops on the freeway instead of in the neighborhoods. This makes me feel no safer, and it is a huge waste of my tax money.
Either this was done on overtime, a foolish tactic, since the City already lost millions on this program under the Mayor Kozaren administration 10 years ago; or this was done on regular time, and the questions becomes: why aren’t the police trying to get speeders on Jos. Campau, or any side street? All the talk on this board and elsewhere centers on having more police in the neighborhoods. I NEVER heard anyone say, “Hey, let’s hire more police so we can stop speeders on I-75.” Yet, this is exactly what we receive. A bad idea on the part of the administration. No other way to say it.
I think Solidarity is trying to weaken our Fire Department so they can justify getting rid of them. The documentation we’ve obtained indicates the Firefighter’s union has made a long list of concessions in the past six years. They’ve also never lost a grievience.
Like other communities, our fire department could be making money on EMS service and billing for watching down powerlines for DTE. For whatever reason, our council has ignored these suggestions the many times they’ve been made.
pkwik, you yourself have recognized the deliqunecies at the police department. I don’t understand how we would benefit from spreading citizen’s mistrust in the police department to the fire department.
“On the other hand, you have elected officials working under a very tight budget, trying to hold down costs and still provide public safety.”
Trying to hold down what costs? I didn’t see any cutting of personnel, outside the FD, when the city implemented the new contract for the firefighters. They recently hired additional administrators, not required under the charter, or state law.
Phill’s solution, “a public safety department”, is not within the bounds of their authority. The new city charter (adopted by vote of the people) provides for seperate police and fire departments. Even if there were a referendum to change the charter, it’s superceded by state and federal contract laws, regarding labor unions. There are existing contracts for both the police and fire departments.
A more practical solution would be to cut administrative costs, by renegotiating some of the contracts with administrative personnel, or laying off administrative assistants. The example should come from the top. Why should the firefighters make concessions, and not the highly paid political appointees?
It’s like K-Mart going bankrupt while the top administrators cashed in big bonuses.
Phill, you approved big payouts for unauthorized contracts, while the city was going broke, the computerized financial records were mysteriously “lost”, and the back-up discs were deleted, so they could be “recycled”–all with an artificially inflated budget. It reminds me of the Enron scam.
They could cut costs for park maintenance, by agreeing to a lease agreement for Veteran’s Memorial Park (and possibly even Zussman) with the school board, contingent upon renewal of the rec millage. That’d free up some general fund money to keep at least one firefighter on board.
They could save money by operating more efficiently, requiring administrators to log their time, maintain regular business hours, and enforce the prohibition against using city funds for campaign purposes. It’s standard operating practice for some appointed personnel to misuse their offices for political campaigning. That’s why checks and balances, including transparency for the administration of public affairs, is crucial for preserving our democratic system of government.
If we kick in our share of county park funds, to meet matching grant requirements for the bike trail, who’s going to provide security?
If the incremental increases in property taxes for the downtown district go back into the general fund, rather than a TIFA, under DDA control, that’d keep more firefighters on board. Those funds are projected to exponentially increase. With the firefighter layoffs, perhaps we should re-think maintaining the accountability for that money among our elected officials, rather than political appointees.
I think Solidarity is trying to weaken our Fire Department so they can justify getting rid of them, too.
it is interesting to me that eveyone can debate on this site, sometimes heatedly, but usually factually, except for julia, who is still writing the same wild distortions of facts, personal attacks, and outright fabrications.
pkwik’s comment was moved to City Council 6/27/06: Parks and lead testing. If readers want discuss the parks, I ask they do it there.
Here is the last offer made by the Union:
http://hamtramckstar.com/media/ff_contracts/2006-07-04/2006_06_13.pdf
For reference, here is the agreement signed by members of the union and Schimmel.
http://hamtramckstar.com/media/ff_contracts/2006-07-04/2006_2_11_agreement.pdf
I guess according to Cedar there is a tooth fairy after all.
Rob is now a proven liar, not only in his campaign promises but in referencing that the firemen did not offer to eliminate the “big retirement bonus” aka ATO tripling.
As I understand it, the union also offered to continue the 2001-2003 contract while working out a new agreement with the city.
It should be noted that the union did ask the city to exchange pension improvements for the ATO provision, the logic being that the MERS program is overfunded and it would prevent a bond issue.
It seems that the city expects the union to agree to every concession they made in negotiations with Schimmel and more in exchange for nothing.
Tred, Come-on guy get real! I know your passionate about the subject but you should not allow it to effect your reading comprehension.
I never “referenced” anything about the contract or offers and repeatedly told you and others to look at the documents and NOT to go by here-say or what someone believes. I mean we’re all capable of jumping to conclusions or possessing false believes (thus the tooth fairy ref.) and NEED to verify our information by looking at reality. Nothing more, nothing less!
And even now your more interested in calling me names then the actual issue at hand. This isn’t about me, you or what someone believes, this is about how cities like Hamtramck are going to survive under a state tax scheme that favors new suburban development over urban revitalization. Its about paying a fair wage package to professional firefighters and protecting the people and property of Hamtramck while providing not only the other essential city services but some semblance of a quality of life urban experience.
Quote Rob:
“”I’ve been told repeatedly now that the firemen had an offer on the table eliminating this very “bonus.” “
And as A child I was told repeatedly that the tooth fairy was real. “
Rob, that doesn’t infer it?
This is double-talk nonsense BS. Everything you are stating in the above post is designed for nothing less to the cover your ass.
You are a liar. You are misleading the public with both lies on this message board and in your campaign progaganda.
I’m very real, Cedar – this whole thread shows that you are very capable of manipulating the truth aand outright lying to make yourself look good. …then when it bites you in the ass, you take the high road.
You were elected to do a job. You are not doing your job.
“”I’ve been told repeatedly now that the firemen had an offer on the table eliminating this very “bonus.” “
And as A child I was told repeatedly that the tooth fairy was real. “
Quote Tred;Rob, that doesn’t infer it?
Rob replies: No Tred it does not, not after I repeatedly told folks to look at the documents and not to rely on what they heard. You may (will) infer what you like and call me a liar all you want but it still does nothing to address the issue and as I said, I am not the issue here.
And as this is getting into a “I said you said” type thing, I’ll just have to respect your opinion even if I disagree and let you have the last word. But in doing so please remember that we’re both on this bus together and should be interested in where its going.
take care,
The bottom line ROB and all of the other city council people, WHEN are you going to start brining the firefighters back onto the job.
If you dont care about our well being, we need to look into some people that will.
And rob, if you cant take getting stung by bees, dont poke the nest. Its a lesson in Taoism.
Tred, I wouldn’t waste your time explaining to Mr. Cedar how leading people to believe something other than the truth is lying. We’ve been down this road before.
I spoke with Mr. Swider and about 12 firemen that infamous Tuesday after the council meeting. I understand Mayor Majewski met with the union only twice and Mr Ahmed once…..where were the rest of our elected officials?
Cathy-
Nowakowski met with the firefighters.
They even posted an endorsement here. http://hamtramckstar.com/index.php/2006/06/28/city_council_6_27_06_public_comment#c6315
“Hamtrmack Firefighters Assoc. President Mark Swider asked me to post this to clear up some rumors.
We do consider Councilman Tim Nowakowski a supporter of the Hamtramck Fire Department. He was not part of the group of councilpersons that supported outsourcing our department. We support Tim and his decisions.
John”
Too many posts to stay on this track (switch my train of thought to another one). Anyway, now that the firefighters are back(thing about being laid off is that you can be recalled quick)… still not sure how that council voted on a contract when it wasn’t on the adjenda.
albin: Discussions about ongoing labor negotiations are held in a closed session after the regular meeting. I have no idea if there was a vote, but the City Manager gets his orders from the Mayor and Council. He didn’t act alone.
Thanks. Still learning about how Hamtramck government works (pretty much given up on figuring out Detroit).
Anyway, I take it this is what people were talking about getting rid of the fire department. And the Detroit Fire Dept did stand up for Hatramck.
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060303/METRO01/603030344/1026/SCHOOLS
Pretty much. The Polish Market fire was almost 3 years ago. Articles about the fire say Detroit helped by answering other calls in Hamtramck that day. They just didn’t help when it came to Polish Market.
On February 11, 2006, the union signed a deal with Schimmel. On February 28, Cedar, Klein, Ahmed, and Majewski voted for a resolution requesting bids for fire protection.
http://hamtramckstar.com/index.php/2006/03/02/p504#more504
No disagreement Hillary. Just didn’t want the impression that the DFD sat around on their hands and did nothing. Wouldn’t have expected the HPD to come running to the Studebaker fire if they weren’t needed either. Still, if some post 9/11 emergency did happen it would be nice to know if some Metro wide plan is in place. Hmm… maybe there’s some way to get homeland security funds to pay some for police and fire…
Like much of their equipment, the FD’s radios are antiques. Any inter-agency emergency will likely be a communications nightmare.
Our FD has taken it upon themselves to write their own grants, which isn’t the norm. City Council appears to be busy with grants they feel are more important.
Our FD has taken it upon themselves to write their own grants, which isn’t the norm. City Council appears to be busy with grants they feel are more important.
Cheep shot!
The Council, (at least myself) is generally aware of the grants available plus relies on those “in the biz” to keep us informed. In the past the FD has proven adept at witting grants and has had full cooperation of the council. Additionally as part of their job the eco dev director and city manager do pursue granting opportunities.
Oftentimes its the person closest to the issue that knows the most about it.
If there has been a grant opertunity that we’ve missed since schimmle left PLEASE let me know about it.
One concern about “grants” is, can we afford required matching funds?
We’re still paying of the loan for matching funds for the JC streetscape. We’re going to have to pay matching funds for the bike trail project (not to mention security and insurance). Our FD needs better equipment to ensure our safety.
It’s a question of priorities.
Rob, welcome back.
That’s not the impression I got from talking with the firemen. As I understand, they’re writing grants because their equipment is old and their workplace is a health hazard.
I didn’t know we were still paying on the JC streetscape. I wonder when it’ll be off the books.
Steve: The complaints were about frustrated grant efforts and antiquated tools in general. The main complaint seemed to be extrication tools from the 70′s that weigh over 100 lbs.
As I understand it, the fire department got new turnout gear with a grant sometime in the last 5 years (no idea if a match was required). They also received a grant for a generator through FEMA. At one point, the council had approved the purchase, but Sobota cancelled it. The department finally got the generator with around $6000 matching funds from the city.
Some grants that didn’t go through… Last year, they asked for a council resolution in support of replacing the aerial platform truck purchased used in 1987. The grant would have covered 90% of $800,000, and the fire department intended to ask HUD to pitch in the other 10% since Senior Plaza is the main reason they need it. The council sent a letter in support to FEMA. Not sure what happened after that, but they didn’t get the truck.
Last, there was a grant for full staffing that would have paid for putting more firemen on duty. Schimmel vetoed that one.
“As I understand, they’re writing grants because their equipment is old and their workplace is a health hazard”
That’s odd I thought they applied for grants to get better equipment and improved working/living conditions. I suppose its all how you “frame” it.
Successful grants are all about showing a need. It would’nt make much sense to apply for a grant by saying “all our equipment is new and our firehouse is in great shape”.
If indeed “their workplace is a health hazard” it’s the first I’ve heard of it. Did you get any details? Why didn’t they come before council? Why is this the first we are hearing of it?
To my recollection the Fireman have never come to the council with a need for equipment that we did not support. And add a new EMS vehicle to that list.
Rob: There are asbestos pipe coverings throughout the building that are disintegrating. No one at the department mentioned it to us. It’s obvious.
rob, for one thing, dont you think its more important to argue for keeping a job or getting more employees first than for the living conditions. Not to downgrade the living conditions (thats very important too, but YOU NEED A JOB, before you live in the fire house.
historically, the firefighters have maintained the building themselves. the savings in doing this is considerable. does the police department go about finding new windows for the station, THEN put them in themselves, WHILE on duty. hmmmmmmmmmm, lets see, how much would it cost the city to do that?
Hillary is right, about the asbestos, but i guess you would be involved in plausible deniablity, if you did “look around” or even “question” a thing or two.
rob, steve and hillary have been in town a little less than two years and they have a better handle on things than you do. and before you get defensive, why dont you take comments as constructive and make yourself a better council person.
mike: I heard that the budget for renovation of the kitchen and dining area at the station was between $200 and $300. Pretty good deal if you ask me.
Our firefighters have been known to go beyond their duty, making improvements to our fire station, during down times.
hillary,
thats a great deal. Im guessing that its 200 to 300 for the materials. just think how much it would cost to have a qualified (and like most cities, by bid process) worker come in and do the work. most of the guys at the station have side jobs and can specialize in (usually) whatever it is that needs to be done.
When the drywall and paneling was put up, everyone pitched in and did the work. both units and all “kellys”.
Ive seen a few of your(both of you) photos, from around the city. notice how different fire stations in detroit are. you can see the pride. some have little ponds and such in the backyards. some, not so much.
Hamtramck, for a station built in 1919, its in great shape. sans the asbestos and it would be better.
The Hamtramck Firehouse is immaculate.
you obviously were able to inspect the station. check out the rest of the staiton. its in good condition. also try checking out detroit stations to get an idea/comparision.
The only area I know we haven’t seen is the second floor. I heard something about it though. Our firemen are sleeping on twin size mattresses about as old as I am and box springs that are even older. What are the chances of getting a grant for that?
that statement by the firefighters, may have been, hyperbole. i know that mattresses were being replaced. there are a number of brand new mattresses. Im suprised they didnt say they slept on straw, with a rock for a pillow.
I kid, but its certainly not sleeping at the mariot. but its not the worst thing either.
did you ever check out the ypsi fd’s station?
Thanks for the report :) I never visited the station in Ypsi. In fact, I don’t think I ever met any firemen. We lived on the opposite side of town. It seems like it was so much harder to meet people there. Maybe it’s just that there were fewer people to meet.
there were fewer “interesting” people. the fire dept there is quality, though. not so much the cops, but the FD has some very good individuals. as long as they arent trying to cop a look at someones stash in a basement.
Hey, you don’t see stripper poles and photos of naked women in your average basement.
One of my favorite videos from the Ypsilanti days is of one of Ypsi’s local characters speaking on Barger’s behalf at a city council meeting.
http://seat.defcode.com/index.php/2004/08/08/lights_out
“He don’t sleep, Cheryl. He don’t wear pajamas!”